WATCH: Gad Saad and Douglas Murray Dive into the Israel-Hamas Conflict: Tough Questions, Straight Answers

Gad Saad, an evolutionary psychologist, recently hosted British author Douglas Murray on The Saad Truth podcast to unpack the Israel-Hamas conflict, antisemitism, and cracks in Western society.

Their chat was a no-holds-barred look at Murray’s new book, On Democracies and Death Cults, inspired by Hamas’s October 7, 2023, attack on Israel. They tackled big issues, faced tough questions head-on, and didn’t shy away from calling out nonsense.

Why Murray Wrote the Book

Murray, the guy behind hits like The War on the West and The Strange Death of Europe, joined Saad to talk about his latest work, born from the October 7 attack when 4,000 Hamas militants stormed southern Israel, killed 1,200 people, mostly civilians, and grabbed 251 hostages. Having spent much of the next year in the region, Murray wanted to document what happened before the world shifted focus to Israel’s response. “Headlines were already about Israel’s retaliation before we knew the full story,” he said, pointing out the attack’s scale, equivalent to 44,000 Americans killed and 10,000 taken hostage in one day.

His book has three aims: record the October 7 massacre, check out Israel’s military moves, and figure out why folks in places like Canada, where Saad lives, are rallying for Hamas, a group Murray calls a “death cult,” instead of a democratic state. “Why are people in Toronto or Vancouver shutting down streets for the guys who raped and butchered at a dance festival, not the victims?” he asked. The book’s already topping charts, and Murray’s happy that readers are digging into his arguments.

Tough Question 1: Is Israel’s Response Too Much?

Saad slipped into the shoes of Israel’s critics, who say its Gaza campaign, which has killed over 51,000 Palestinians according to Gaza’s Hamas-run health ministry, is way out of line and robs Israel of any moral high ground.

Murray didn’t blink: “Send me your battle plan.” He challenged naysayers to come up with a way to wipe out Hamas, nab its leaders, and free the hostages, 59 of whom are still in Gaza, with only 24 possibly alive, in a crowded city where Hamas has had 18 years to dig tunnels, stash weapons in houses, and booby-trap buildings.

“If you’ve got a better idea, I’ll pass it to the generals,” he said. “No Israeli soldier wants to stay in Gaza a second longer than they have to, but Hamas is still holding hostages and running parts of Gaza.”

Murray’s point is that fighting a group like Hamas, which hides among civilians, is messy. He’s open to smarter plans but hasn’t seen any, and critics’ lack of real solutions weakens their moral gripes.

Tough Question 2: Why Focus on October 7?

Saad then threw out another critic’s jab: by zeroing in on October 7, 2023, Murray ignores “80 years of systematic genocide and subjugation” of Palestinians, claiming Israel’s 1948 founding was a wrong that fuels resistance. Murray shot back that he doesn’t start in 2023 or even 1948. “I go back to 1979,” he said, pinning the region’s chaos on Iran’s Islamic Revolution. That shift, led by Ayatollah Khomeini, spawned a regime that bankrolls and arms Hamas, Hezbollah, and other groups stirring trouble from Iraq to Yemen. “Iran’s mullahs are the ones funding Hamas’s rockets,” he said.

On the 1948 claim, Murray leaned on colleague Natasha Hausdorff: arguing about Israel’s birth now is like debating abortion when someone’s in their 70s, it’s about existence, not origins.

“If you think 1948 was a mistake, fighting it in 2025 means destroying a state, not fixing history,” he said. He pointed out Palestinians have turned down statehood offers, from 1948 to the Oslo Accords, choosing to battle Israel instead. “They could’ve had a state in 1964 or anytime after,” he said, blaming groups like the PLO for chasing Israel’s destruction over building their own country.

Saad got personal, sharing how his Lebanese Jewish family fled violence, with Palestinians stealing their home and torturing his parents. His wife’s Armenian family survived genocide, yet they’ve moved forward without “genocidal desires” against their oppressors. “Why can’t Palestinians accept their history like I did?” he asked. Murray’s take was bleak: as long as victimhood and multi-generational refugee status are taught as winning strategies, peace is a long shot. “Hamas ran Gaza for 18 years,” he said. “They could’ve built a thriving society after Israel left in 2005, but they picked war after war, and losing comes with a cost.”

The West’s Cold Shoulder to Israel

Murray was stunned by the West’s reaction to October 7. He expected some compassion for Israel’s victims but saw protests in cities like New York and Toronto backing Hamas. He shared a gut-punch story: a Nova music festival memorial in New York, honoring the 360 young people killed, faced anti-Israel protesters chanting against the victims. “A dad who lost his daughters had to walk through people celebrating their murder,” he said. “If 9/11 victims’ families faced this, we’d call it twisted.” He and Saad agreed this shows a unique bias: “A one-year-old Israeli baby is seen as less worthy of sympathy than any other,” Murray said, calling it a “sickness” in Western views toward Jews.

Saad said he’s not shocked by Islamic antisemitism, which he faced growing up in Lebanon, but was floored by Westerners’ “orastic depravity” in pinning unrelated problems on Jews. He brought up his “Six Degrees of Jew” game, where any issue, like Britain’s Muslim grooming gangs, gets tied to Jews in a few steps. “I posted about the Huddersfield gang, all named Muhammad, and got replies saying Jews let them into Britain,” he said, joking that “three Muhammads equal one Moishe.” Murray chuckled, saying it’s now “one degree of Jew,” and blamed this on Jews being a small, visible minority, perfect scapegoats for personal failures, as theorist René Girard argued. “When your life’s a wreck, it’s easier to blame Jews than yourself,” he said.

Tough Question 3: Can We End Antisemitism?

Saad asked if there’s a “mind vaccine” to wipe out antisemitism, especially in the Muslim world, where it’s “routine, rife, and commonplace,” according to journalist Mehdi Hasan. Murray wasn’t hopeful: “It’s baked into human nature.”

He said Jews’ small numbers and big influence make them constant targets, like Amy Chua’s “market-dominant minority.” Islamic antisemitism, he added, stems from Israel’s “intolerable” success in a region of struggling states, plus old grudges like Jews rejecting Muhammad’s teachings. “It’s all projection,” he said. “What the Muslim world accuses Jews of, they’re doing themselves.”

While a full fix is unlikely, Murray thinks education can help. “You can steer decent people away from this toxic mind virus,” he said, noting progress in spotting left-wing antisemitism, often cloaked as anti-Zionism. But Islamic antisemitism is barely understood in the West, making it harder to tackle.

Western Woes and Hope

They also touched on broader Western problems, like immigration and cultural decline. Saad was gloomy, pointing to Islamic leaders’ claims of conquering the West through high birth rates, immigration (hijra), and using freedoms against host countries.

“Places like Dearborn and Minneapolis are showing these trends,” he said, worrying about an irreversible slide without drastic action. Murray was more balanced, saying it varies by country. The U.S. has a solid “autocorrect” system, shown by Trump’s 2024 win addressing border issues, but Canada and Britain lag. “In Canada, you swap a leader and get the same errors,” he said, noting Britain’s post-Brexit migration spike under both Conservatives and Labour.

Denmark, though, gives hope. Its left-wing government cut migration after early red flags like the 2005 cartoon crisis. “They’re doing what any smart government would,” Murray said. Success hinges on bold leaders and voters who back real fixes, not just talk.

The Joe Rogan Showdown

Saad raised Murray’s heated Joe Rogan Experience appearance, where he called out Rogan for hosting “idiots” like comedian Dave Smith, who pushed anti-Israel views.

Murray felt Rogan stacked the deck, pairing him with Smith in a two-on-one debate, while others got free passes. “If someone went on Joe’s show and babbled about MMA without knowing the rules, he’d shut them down,” Murray said. “Why not with Ukraine or Israel?” He argued Rogan’s curiosity, though real, sometimes spreads misinformation from “self-taught comedians” or “pseudo-historians” who duck accountability.

Saad, a Rogan pal, softly critiqued Murray’s style, saying his “moral indignation” was spot-on but might’ve lost some listeners. “I got flak from Jews for saying you could’ve gone easier,” he admitted, facing accusations of being a “fraud” for not cutting ties with Rogan.

Murray brushed it off: “It’s like fans yelling at a footballer from the stands.” He stood firm, saying someone had to challenge Rogan’s platforming of “frauds” who spew “sewage.” He hopes Rogan sees it as “friendly criticism” and brings on experts, like survivors or soldiers, to clear up the mess.

What’s Next

Murray called On Democracies and Death Cults a tough project, written from notebooks in Israel, Lebanon, and Gaza. Beyond war, it’s a deep dive into evil, heroism, and decency against all odds. “Hamas’s actions on October 7 made me rethink the nature of evil,” he said. He’s focused on pushing the book and kept mum on new projects, joking they’re “state secrets.” He promised Saad it won’t be nine years before their next chat and hopes to meet in London in June 2025, when Saad speaks at events there.